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 Application IFTC Istanbul

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hakoko



Posts : 7
Join date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:11 am

Hi all from Turkey;

i've decided to make an application to infinity alliance after a small talk with severnaya few days ago.
here are details of my airline:

based in turkey, IST.
fleet: 63 (as of 26-04-2011)
51 dh4
4 737
2 757f
2 crj 900
2 dh3

it's the #1 operator in turkey by numbers in both; fleet size, flights, passenger, freight and connections etc. and getting bigger and bigger everyday on international routes too. the company has very good domestic connections almost every major city in turkey.
we have more than 1300 fligts per week from ist, 600+ from ayt, 200+ from adb&esb.

IFTC Istanbul will be a very useful addition for Infinity Alliance especially connections in turkey and gonna be a very active feeder on international routes later on.

i also created a new airline in ukraine called Sheva Air few days ago and expect some support to this tiny airline for growing, if we can agree with terms on conditions:)))

if you have any questions, i can answer from here later on.

have fun all...

hakan.



Last edited by hakoko on Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:23 am

Hi Hakan,

Thanks for your interest in joining our alliance. In the next few days our members will discuss your application and might have a few questions, so please check back regularly to ensure a quick and easy process.

First question: You have some conflicting IL with some of our major competitors, such as Travellton, LT Airlines and YT Europe, are you willing to remove these ILs if you were admitted into the Infinity Alliance?

Cheers,
Infinity Members
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hakoko



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Join date : 2011-04-26

PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:12 am

well...
it is a really hard condition for me.

Travellton is not only a partner of me, it is also a shareholder of my company. i work with Travellton since beginning of the game and if i cancel the IL with them does any Infinity member can deliver thousands conx from FRA to me?
almost the same situation with YT Europe; if any Infinity member can supply thousands of conx from CDG, i can cancel the IL's no problem.
LT IL's is not a big problem, i can cancel it without a problem.

in fact, i can guarantee that iwill never sign any IL with any members region anymore and cancel the competing IL's. however, travellton and yt europe's IL's are unstoppable at the moment.
in fact there is no alliance member at CDG or FRA&LHR etc. aero oka and cb airways are the only members in europe and i can guarantee that they will be the only partner in Russia and UK.

also your members have IL's with other turkish company's, you can cancel your IL aggrements without any problem, so; i will replace them better and more more conx. your alliance get benefit from there to changing IL's, but canceling travellton and yt europe IL's don't make the same effect to me. it is not fair i guess.

cheers for now...

hakan.
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fxxxr

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Join date : 2010-05-28

PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:49 am

Hi from me,

hakoko wrote:
well...
almost the same situation with YT Europe; if any Infinity member can supply thousands of conx from CDG, i can cancel the IL's no problem.
.
.
.
in fact there is no alliance member at CDG or FRA&LHR etc.
hakan.

If I am not wrong you don't fly to LHR/CDG! If you decide to operate a more international network there are member airlines in some of the biggest airports in EU. CDG is far too congested to massively deploy there and in LHR you are lucky if you find decent slots for 7day operation, additionally both are large enough to have 2 daily flights even without a major interlining partner there.

hakoko wrote:

aero oka and cb airways are the only members in Europe and i can guarantee that they will be the only partner in Russia and UK.

hakan.
There is another European alliance member, cAIR in LCA/MAD, and as its manager I'd like to know what is your future strategy. There is a ban on Turkey-Cyprus flights, so there is no conflict there, but as the closest member I'd like to know more, If you are uncomfortable publishing these on a public forum please elaborate via PM
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hakoko



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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:44 am

hi to you fxxxr,

fxxxr wrote:
Hi from me,

hakoko wrote:
well...
almost the same situation with YT Europe; if any Infinity member can supply thousands of conx from CDG, i can cancel the IL's no problem.
.
.
.
in fact there is no alliance member at CDG or FRA&LHR etc.
hakan.

If I am not wrong you don't fly to LHR/CDG! If you decide to operate a more international network there are member airlines in some of the biggest airports in EU. CDG is far too congested to massively deploy there and in LHR you are lucky if you find decent slots for 7day operation, additionally both are large enough to have 2 daily flights even without a major interlining partner there.


i haven't any fligt yet but looking for suitable free slots, in fact even without flight to there, they are important airports with supplying so many conx to every point in the world.

fxxxr wrote:


hakoko wrote:

aero oka and cb airways are the only members in Europe and i can guarantee that they will be the only partner in Russia and UK.

hakan.
There is another European alliance member, cAIR in LCA/MAD, and as its manager I'd like to know what is your future strategy. There is a ban on Turkey-Cyprus flights, so there is no conflict there, but as the closest member I'd like to know more, If you are uncomfortable publishing these on a public forum please elaborate via PM

my aim is off course to connect much more city to istanbul. IFTC is not a regional airline and it's international routes growing everyday. i don't want to connect any spanish city to istanbul due to low demand and cyprus flights -as you said before- is impossible, so we can work together without any spanish or cypriot conx.

do you have any suggestion or alternate for CDG/FRA flights?

byee...
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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:55 am

hakoko wrote:
i haven't any fligt yet but looking for suitable free slots, in fact even without flight to there, they are important airports with supplying so many conx to every point in the world.

my aim is off course to connect much more city to istanbul. IFTC is not a regional airline and it's international routes growing everyday. i don't want to connect any spanish city to istanbul due to low demand and cyprus flights -as you said before- is impossible, so we can work together without any spanish or cypriot conx.

do you have any suggestion or alternate for CDG/FRA flights?

I don't understand your stickiness to Travellton & YT. FlyFrance (sub from cAir) has a base at ORY and you don't even fly to any French airport.
The same for London, CB airways has large bases in LGW and MAN, they will provide you more than enough feed.

We also have bases in CGN, HAM, AMS, BRU and many more cities, just check every airport for cAir, CB airways, Oka, Wings of Norway.
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hakoko



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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:30 am

hi again:)
Severnaya wrote:

I don't understand your stickiness to Travellton & YT. FlyFrance (sub from cAir) has a base at ORY and you don't even fly to any French airport.
The same for London, CB airways has large bases in LGW and MAN, they will provide you more than enough feed.

We also have bases in CGN, HAM, AMS, BRU and many more cities, just check every airport for cAir, CB airways, Oka, Wings of Norway.

we can't explain that with "stickness". may be we can explain that "beneficial effect".
i provide almost double conx flights to every member of the alliance in turkey at any turkish airport than todays provider (iron wings jet).
however you want from me to cancel my IL aggreements which is provide me almost 2x flights at nearly every airport in europe than the alliance members provide me.

alliance provide me less than my todays conx.
i provide to all members more than todays conx.

i will serve more international routes to member hubs of course but i can not cancel my travellton and yt europe's IL aggreements at the moment, because it is not a fair deal, especially for my company.

if it is not possible to be a member without canceling my IL aggreements, may be we shall talk about any other options than being a member.
(if possible)

regards...

hakan.
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chrisb37



Posts : 441
Join date : 2010-07-26
Location : Leeds, UK

PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:50 am

Hi Hakan

In Infinity, we base our success on close cooperation between members and helping each others airlines to grow. That is pretty much the whole point of an alliance. If you were to join we would of course all terminate our ILs with Iron Wings Jet and any other airline in competition with you as well as helping you in any way we can. But if you keep interlining with YT and TON we will obviously lose passengers from the alliances network to two of our main competitors in Europe. Kind of defeats the whole point of an alliance doesnt it?

I understand your concerns but I think you are overestimating TON and YT. Sure they have 1000's of departures from their hubs but if you look closer they are mostly using smaller jets, (dash 8s and embraer jets) CB cAir and Oka use mostly 73Gs and 739s which offer far more seats per aircraft (100+) Take Amsterdam as an example - CB 2200 departures TON 4700 departures but only a 2% difference in market share. I am constantly working to improve CB's presence in Europe and im sure within the next month or two CB will be able to overtake TON in terms of passengers carried per week, eitherway I really cant see you not being able to fill flights to the major destinations anyway.

I think we would very much like a Turkish member airline onboard but I hope you understand that it cant happen if you are still interlining with two of our biggest rival airlines.

Regards

Chris
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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:39 pm

hakoko wrote:
i provide almost double conx flights to every member of the alliance in turkey at any turkish airport than todays provider (iron wings jet).
however you want from me to cancel my IL aggreements which is provide me almost 2x flights at nearly every airport in europe than the alliance members provide me.

alliance provide me less than my todays conx.
i provide to all members more than todays conx.
Let's check the facts: These are the airports outside of Turkey you are flying to:

AMS: Infinity Market share: 29.15% YT+Travelton: 26.39%
TLV: Infinity : 38.97% YT+TR: 4.04%
ATH: Infinity 4.90%, YT+TR: 3.88%
BEY: Infinity 36,00%, YT+TR: 5.30%
BEG: Infinity 11.72%, YT+TR 17.9%
SXF: Infinity: 13.30%, YT+TR: 20%
TXL: Infinity: 11.86%, YT+TR: 10.6%
BRU: Infinity: 24.76%, YT+TR: 19%
OTP: Infinity: 9.88%, YT+TR: 17.50%
BUD: Infinity: 15.36%, YT+TR: 16.5%
CAI: Infinity: 17.29% YT+TR: 4.5%
FRA: Infinity: 13.7%, YT+TR: 40%
HER: Infinity: 36.06%, YT+TR: 15%
DME: Infinity: 78.12%, YT+TR: 2.3%
SVO: Infinity: 98.18%, YT+TR: 0.39%
MUC: Infinity: 24.13%, YT+TR: 14%
NUE: Infinity: 10%, YT+TR: 19%
ODS: Infinity: 23%, YT+TR: 0%
PRG: Infinity: 18%, YT+TR 18%
SZG: Infinity: 14.12%, YT+TR: 15%
SOF: Infinity: 40%, YT+TR: 19%
STR: Infinity: 19%, YT+TR: 20.5%
SKG: Infinity: 13%, YT+TR: 5.8%
VIE: Infinity: 10%, YT+TR: 9%
WAW: Infinity: 7.5% YT+TR: 63%
ZAG: Infinity: 4.58%, YT+TR: 14%
ZRH: Infinity: 14.95%, YT+TR: 9%

At IST, your hub, you have a smaller market share than IRON Wings, 33% vs 35%. At AYT and ADB you are market share leader.

So, I don't think it's fair to say that it is unfair of us to ask you to terminate IL with YT and Travellton. In reward you get interlinings from all Infinity members that fly to Turkey or your other destinations, so your connectivity in the Croydon world increases more than you will lose with YT & Travelton.
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hakoko



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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:09 pm

hi Chris;

thanks your explanations about infinity and my concern. yes you are right, your airline is growin all over europe and increasing it's market share.
from my side, also my airline is growing too. i have just started flying from IST (1 month ago) and have almost the same market share with 1 year old company and leading the number of flights etc. also turkish market is growing too, but europe's flight market is almost at the top point. it is so hard to increase europe's flight market from now on without new connected countries such as turkey. in that point i can help infinity to develop it's leading position. however your alliance is forcing me to cancel my IL aggreements with my partners. if Infinity want to devolop it's market share you have to offer something special to me instead of forcing me to cancel IL agreements i guess. in that point i think we are all have to continue that in our own style. i started the game as an independent company and came till now without any alliance or any help, and can continue with like this.
i think i can be a member of Infinity with my IL aggreements. after a few weeks later, if the things getting better and better with infinity, i will cancel my IL aggrements with my own decision and continue with Infinity. but i can understand that if alliance will take a different decision about my company either.

in both ways i hope your alliance and company's will get bigger and bigger every day. best wishes to all.
have fun...

hakan.


ps: (@severnaya; we talk with you a few days ago and you asked me to join Infinity. and also we talk about IL and handling provider contracts and my tiny Ukrainian company yesterday. you didnot say anything about my IL partners, that's way i've asked to join Infinity today. if i knew anything about forcing to cancel IL agreements, i have never applied to join Infinity. anyway, best wishes to you also. safe flights, happy landings Razz )
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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:10 am

hakoko wrote:
ps: (@severnaya; we talk with you a few days ago and you asked me to join Infinity. and also we talk about IL and handling provider contracts and my tiny Ukrainian company yesterday. you didnot say anything about my IL partners, that's way i've asked to join Infinity today. if i knew anything about forcing to cancel IL agreements, i have never applied to join Infinity. anyway, best wishes to you also. safe flights, happy landings Razz )
Not really true. I first send you this:
Quote :
Hello,

I'm Anna (Severnaya) from Aero Oka, and the Infinity Alliance.

We're currently looking for airlines that want to join our Infinity Alliance: the best alliance on Croydon with the largest airlines.

Are you interested in joining? Your route network is great and will be a useful addition to Infinity's route network. Both you and the alliance will greatly benefit from ILs and transfer passengers.

Let me know what you think or have a look at our forum website: http://infinityalliance.forumotion.net/

Best regards,
Anna
then you replied me with this:
Quote :
thanks for your invitation Anna.
i will join an alliance in a few weeks later i guess but nowadays, i have to optimize my company's flights and planning to create a new airline. i will inform you later about joining infinity.

have fun...

hakan.
Then some days later you wrote:
Quote :
Hello again Anna;

i've just finished my company's flight optimization and created a new company (Sheva Air)in KBP.

we can now start contract talks about Infinity, if your alliance still interested in my company:)
i have some questions about the alliance:

there are 3 nearest airlines (aerooka, cb airways uk and cair) to my company but 2 of them are partnering with IWJ
-my biggest competitor in turkey and the 3rd one does not have rights to fly turkey. how can we manage these partnering aggrements and connections?

may i get pax and cargo handling provider contracts from any member of the alliance?

that's all for now:) keep in touch.

hakan.
with my reply:
Quote :
Hello Hakan!

Thanks for your reply. Those ILs of my airline (Aero Oka) and CB/cAir can be of course terminated and changed to your airline if the airlines agree with that. I for myself can say that I can switch and IL with you, that would be no problem.

Sheva Air will not be part of Infinity, as Ukraine is to close to Russia to have an additional member.

Your Turkish airline IFTC Istanbul would be a very good addition to Infinity, so please post your application at our website: http://infinityalliance.forumotion.net/ and we'll have a vote, which most likely will see you go the into Infinity alliance relatively fast.

Thanks for your time and I hope to see your application at http://infinityalliance.forumotion.net/ :-)

Regards,
Anna
In bold highlighted I have shown you that we are very willing to switch IL from IWJ to your airline. Isn't it fair that you also switch some ILs to make an alliance work?

There's just the point that when you would be admitted into Infinity and would keep certain ILs, then traffic for example from any point in Europe to Turkey may go on YT+You, when the point of an alliance should be that traffic goes from Any Infinity Member to another Infinity member (you in this case).
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hakoko



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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:40 am

good afternoon Anna

i don't want to say anything more about, who wanted-who offered, you also approved what i have exactly said on my last message, anyway...
Severnaya wrote:


There's just the point that when you would be admitted into Infinity and would keep certain ILs, then traffic for example from any point in Europe to Turkey may go on YT+You, when the point of an alliance should be that traffic goes from Any Infinity Member to another Infinity member (you in this case).

on your message you (and Chris also) are concerning about possibility of losing passengers in europe to turkey flights with my YT and Travellton IL's, but it is already a real fact.
Because several Infinity member already had IL agreement with Iron Wings Jet in turkey -it is a member of different/repututive alliance and already have IL aggrements with
-my IL partners only two:- Travellton, YT Europe (IWJ is also in same alliance with YT group) they have additional YT China, Byton, Long Travel IL's aggrement too.
if you have any concerns about losing pax and demand from me to cancel my IL aggrements, why you and your frinds continue to work with IWJ which is in different alliance and have 3 more IL aggrements than my company? do you think it is fair?


i've promised that before, to not make any aggrements with alliance member's region/reputer companies and will cancel aggrement with Long Travel but you demand from me more than you have at the moment.

traffic @europe<-->turkey/ now: any infinity member--->IWJ(member of Lions Alliance also)--->Travellton, Yt Europe, YT China, Byton, Long Travel etc. (less conx than i offer)
traffic @ europe<-->turkey/ i offer: any infinity member--->IFTC--->any infinity member+Travellton, Yt Europe (3 less IL aggrements than IWJ, offer more conx, plus alliance membership)


as you can see i offer to Infinity less possibility to lose pax to rival group plus more conx. and very suitable location for europe-asia/near east transfer point in a very high potential airport.

i think it is fair that to keep my IL aggrements, cause i offer a better situation than todays for Infinity members in turkey.

now that is your choice to select my company as a member or continue "to lose pax to your rivals" with IWJ.

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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:53 pm

hakoko wrote:
on your message you (and Chris also) are concerning about possibility of losing passengers in europe to turkey flights with my YT and Travellton IL's, but it is already a real fact.
Because several Infinity member already had IL agreement with Iron Wings Jet in turkey -it is a member of different/repututive alliance and already have IL aggrements with
-my IL partners only two:- Travellton, YT Europe (IWJ is also in same alliance with YT group) they have additional YT China, Byton, Long Travel IL's aggrement too.
if you have any concerns about losing pax and demand from me to cancel my IL aggrements, why you and your frinds continue to work with IWJ which is in different alliance and have 3 more IL aggrements than my company? do you think it is fair?


i've promised that before, to not make any aggrements with alliance member's region/reputer companies and will cancel aggrement with Long Travel but you demand from me more than you have at the moment.

traffic @europe<-->turkey/ now: any infinity member--->IWJ(member of Lions Alliance also)--->Travellton, Yt Europe, YT China, Byton, Long Travel etc. (less conx than i offer)
traffic @ europe<-->turkey/ i offer: any infinity member--->IFTC--->any infinity member+Travellton, Yt Europe (3 less IL aggrements than IWJ, offer more conx, plus alliance membership)


as you can see i offer to Infinity less possibility to lose pax to rival group plus more conx. and very suitable location for europe-asia/near east transfer point in a very high potential airport.

i think it is fair that to keep my IL aggrements, cause i offer a better situation than todays for Infinity members in turkey.

now that is your choice to select my company as a member or continue "to lose pax to your rivals" with IWJ.

Look, I don't have the time currently to comment on every aspect you are saying because work is kind of busy lately but we as Infinity set the rules for the alliance that alliance members may not IL with YT Group + BIRDS Alliance airlines, that is all.
Those two groups are our largest competitors, IWJ is not a competitor at all, he's too small to be of any significant influence. The same for your airline, we don't really need you, so if you don't want to discontinue IL with YT+Birds, then that's fine of course.
IST has significant value as a transit airport for Europe to Middle East traffic, for the rest its location isn't good, Russia is much better located for Europe/Asia traffic and North America/Middle East.
We have a member airline in the region around IST, namely cAir, so traffic to Africa and to the Middle East we are easily able to offer within the alliance.
If you ever want to join an alliance, you simply have to distract some ILs, that's life, you get in reward approximately 20 back from airlines all over the world.

Now about the current situation that we might lose passengers to IWJ, that is correct, however he most of all is busy on the Turkey-Europe route (like you do), and as we have our own connections currently to Turkey as well, and he doesn't offer anything beyond turkey (such as SIN, KUL, MEL) there is nothing to loose from him, because hardly some traffic will flow on Infinity+IWJ+???
This is another case with YT Group that has 150 intercontinental aircraft, bringing possible pax from France to anywhere in the world.
IWJ doesn't offer that, so we don't loose much, and gives us the possibility to take traffic from all over Turkey into our alliance. Besides, you keep on comparing yourself with Iron Wings, but Iron Wings is not part of our alliance, and he is not a competitor at all to any of us. He is only the 68th airline pax/week, you are # 62th.

I'm afraid if you don't want to stop your IL with YT+BIRDS members, then we can stop talking, much to our sadness as we know that you won't miss any traffic by cancelling YT+BIRDS, because you are flying with such small planes that you in any case are able to feed, and we will feed your hubs as well with our member airlines.

The decision is yours. Smile
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hakoko



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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:12 pm

ok than, i will continue the game alone cause we can't agree with any point on our contract talks.
i am happy with my small airline and you are happy with your giant alliance and that's all just a game. we don't need to talk that much about such stupid deals.

have fun all...

hakan.
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Severnaya

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PostSubject: Re: Application IFTC Istanbul   Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:39 pm

hakoko wrote:
ok than, i will continue the game alone cause we can't agree with any point on our contract talks.
i am happy with my small airline and you are happy with your giant alliance and that's all just a game. we don't need to talk that much about such stupid deals.

have fun all...

hakan.
Okay, thanks for your application and bye.
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